Folder numbers

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Folder numbers

Diva Canto
The devs of the Alchemy viewer reached out to us pointing out that the
number OpenSim has been using for the root folders (9) is inconsistent
with what viewers expect (8). The enum that rules this is here:
https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release/src/9f2f82e7c37127106b340b18c3a938f1ecf121cf/indra/llinventory/llfoldertype.h?at=default

So far, it appears that viewer devs have simply been working around the
problem in order to support OpenSim -- basically disabling a number of
consistency checks at login, otherwise the viewers would crash. A root
folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.

The Alchemy devs are now adding support for OpenSim from a clean-slate,
and ran into this. Instead of proceeding to work around it again, they
are asking if we can make OpenSim consistent with the protocol.

While changing the code is trivial, this has implications beyond that.
Specifically, grid operators might need to change the DB in order to
change all root folders to 8.

Now, it is my understanding that the DB change is not urgent, as the
popular viewers (Singularity, FireStorm) will continue to disable those
consistency checks for a while. But Singularity will likely pick up any
improvements we make that will decrease the number of work-arounds for
OpenSim. So in the long run, it will be wise for grid operators to make
that change (it's a trivial UPDATE statement).

Also related to this, the Suitcase folder number that gets sent to the
viewer is... 8. So we'd need to change that to another number, because
that's reserved for root folders (in the viewers that check). -1 is the
default, and it's harmless. But in talking to these viewer devs, they
seem to be open to introducing a new special folder number for the
Suitcase (100 or 64), so that eventually they may even do special things
with it in terms of UI.

I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1) complying
with the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder
number to something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us
know).
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Re: Folder numbers

Oren Hurvitz
+1 to changing the root folder type to 8.

Regarding the Suitcase Folder: in the database, the Folder Type is 100. This unique value is used to find the suitcase folder. However, viewers don't understand this type, so when we send the folder to them we pretend that its type is 8. These constants are defined at the top of InventoryItemBase.cs. IIRC you (Diva) had defined this constant, and the commit I had made was just to make sure it's used in *every* place where we talk to the viewer, as some places were sending folder type 8 and some were sending folder type -1.

If the viewer devs add support for Folder Type 100 then we could remove the hack that sends a fake type for the suitcase. However, this would have to be delayed until we can be sure that most of the OpenSim users have upgraded to viewers that support this.

I believe using folder type -1 for the Suitcase caused problems, which is why I took the time to make sure we never send it. IIRC there were two problems, both of which are caused by the fact that folder type -1 is normally used for user-created folders, but we want the Suitcase folder to behave like a system folder (like the folders "Objects", "Textures", etc.)

The first problem is that the Suitcase folder becomes deletable if its type is -1. I don't remember what happens if you try to delete it and the server refuses: it may be that the folder appears deleted in the viewer but reappears later. But that still "astonishes the user". The second problem is that the folder gets dumped with the rest of the user-created folders (in the sort order), where it may not be easily visible. Currently, when it has a System Folder Type (anything other than -1), it gets sorted with the system folders.

So the best approach is this: first, we'll switch the folder types: send the Root Folder as 8, and the Suitcase as 9. Once the viewer devs have added support for Folder Type 100, and enough time has passed that most users have such viewers, we'll change the folder type of the Suitcase to 100, and the viewer devs will remove the hacks that they currently use for OpenSim.

Oren



On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Diva Canto <[hidden email]> wrote:
The devs of the Alchemy viewer reached out to us pointing out that the number OpenSim has been using for the root folders (9) is inconsistent with what viewers expect (8). The enum that rules this is here:
https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release/src/9f2f82e7c37127106b340b18c3a938f1ecf121cf/indra/llinventory/llfoldertype.h?at=default

So far, it appears that viewer devs have simply been working around the problem in order to support OpenSim -- basically disabling a number of consistency checks at login, otherwise the viewers would crash. A root folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.

The Alchemy devs are now adding support for OpenSim from a clean-slate, and ran into this. Instead of proceeding to work around it again, they are asking if we can make OpenSim consistent with the protocol.

While changing the code is trivial, this has implications beyond that. Specifically, grid operators might need to change the DB in order to change all root folders to 8.

Now, it is my understanding that the DB change is not urgent, as the popular viewers (Singularity, FireStorm) will continue to disable those consistency checks for a while. But Singularity will likely pick up any improvements we make that will decrease the number of work-arounds for OpenSim. So in the long run, it will be wise for grid operators to make that change (it's a trivial UPDATE statement).

Also related to this, the Suitcase folder number that gets sent to the viewer is... 8. So we'd need to change that to another number, because that's reserved for root folders (in the viewers that check). -1 is the default, and it's harmless. But in talking to these viewer devs, they seem to be open to introducing a new special folder number for the Suitcase (100 or 64), so that eventually they may even do special things with it in terms of UI.

I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1) complying with the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder number to something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us know).
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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
In reply to this post by Diva Canto
On 15-08-06 10:16 AM, Diva Canto wrote:
> A root
> folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.

That would be a bug in the viewer program. If it gets something unexpected
it shouldn't crash but handle it gracefully.

> I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1) complying with
> the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder number to
> something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us know).

Has anyone determined why OpenSim changed the root folder number to 9?

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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Re: Folder numbers

Cinder Roxley
In reply to this post by Oren Hurvitz
On August 6, 2015 at 8:52:21 AM, Oren Hurvitz ([hidden email]) wrote:
+1 to changing the root folder type to 8.

Regarding the Suitcase Folder: in the database, the Folder Type is 100. This unique value is used to find the suitcase folder. However, viewers don't understand this type, so when we send the folder to them we pretend that its type is 8. These constants are defined at the top of InventoryItemBase.cs. IIRC you (Diva) had defined this constant, and the commit I had made was just to make sure it's used in *every* place where we talk to the viewer, as some places were sending folder type 8 and some were sending folder type -1.

If the viewer devs add support for Folder Type 100 then we could remove the hack that sends a fake type for the suitcase. However, this would have to be delayed until we can be sure that most of the OpenSim users have upgraded to viewers that support this.

I believe using folder type -1 for the Suitcase caused problems, which is why I took the time to make sure we never send it. IIRC there were two problems, both of which are caused by the fact that folder type -1 is normally used for user-created folders, but we want the Suitcase folder to behave like a system folder (like the folders "Objects", "Textures", etc.)

The first problem is that the Suitcase folder becomes deletable if its type is -1. I don't remember what happens if you try to delete it and the server refuses: it may be that the folder appears deleted in the viewer but reappears later. But that still "astonishes the user". The second problem is that the folder gets dumped with the rest of the user-created folders (in the sort order), where it may not be easily visible. Currently, when it has a System Folder Type (anything other than -1), it gets sorted with the system folders.

So the best approach is this: first, we'll switch the folder types: send the Root Folder as 8, and the Suitcase as 9. Once the viewer devs have added support for Folder Type 100, and enough time has passed that most users have such viewers, we'll change the folder type of the Suitcase to 100, and the viewer devs will remove the hacks that they currently use for OpenSim.

Oren

That sounds reasonable. I’m going to add FT_SUITCASE to our upcoming release and send patches out to Firestorm and Singularity with the changes for integration. I had some janky suitcase folder detection based on folder name and parent, but this will be much better. :) Only time will tell how long it takes for users to adopt the updates.

-- 
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Re: Folder numbers

Diva Canto
In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens
On 8/6/2015 7:58 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> On 15-08-06 10:16 AM, Diva Canto wrote:
>> A root
>> folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.
>
> That would be a bug in the viewer program. If it gets something
> unexpected it shouldn't crash but handle it gracefully.

Crash as in refuse to continue, I assume. That's what assertions are for.

>
>> I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1)
>> complying with
>> the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder
>> number to
>> something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us know).
>
> Has anyone determined why OpenSim changed the root folder number to 9?
>

This happened in the move from 0.6.x to 0.7.x. I can't remember why this
was done, but I suspect we just used whatever libomv defines as root
folder, which is... 9 -- see AssetType.RootFolder. It looks like libomv
is "wrong," and the viewer devs have recently submitted a patch to
libomv to correct this.
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Re: Folder numbers

Diva Canto
btw, I have a strong suspicion that older grids have now a mix of 8 and
9 for root inventory folders, because this change happened from 0.6.x to
0.7.x, but no one cared so far about the exact value of this field.

On 8/6/2015 8:09 AM, Diva Canto wrote:

> On 8/6/2015 7:58 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
>> On 15-08-06 10:16 AM, Diva Canto wrote:
>>> A root
>>> folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.
>>
>> That would be a bug in the viewer program. If it gets something
>> unexpected it shouldn't crash but handle it gracefully.
>
> Crash as in refuse to continue, I assume. That's what assertions are for.
>
>>
>>> I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1)
>>> complying with
>>> the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder
>>> number to
>>> something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us know).
>>
>> Has anyone determined why OpenSim changed the root folder number to 9?
>>
>
> This happened in the move from 0.6.x to 0.7.x. I can't remember why
> this was done, but I suspect we just used whatever libomv defines as
> root folder, which is... 9 -- see AssetType.RootFolder. It looks like
> libomv is "wrong," and the viewer devs have recently submitted a patch
> to libomv to correct this.
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>

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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens
On 15-08-06 10:58 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> Has anyone determined why OpenSim changed the root folder number to 9?

I decided to see if I could answer my own question by doing some digging.

The file OpenMetaverseTypes/Enums.cs of libOpenMetaverse is where you can
find "public enum AssetType" where it has Folder=8 as a "collection of
inventory items" and RootFolder=9 as the "Root inventory folder".

This was changed in commit #f48c9922 by John Hurliman with a date/timestamp
of 2009-04-09 01:17:40. This situation has existed for just over 6 years. I
haven't yet found the reason for the change. The earliest history of the
file in question is a commit dated May 11, 2009 that states: "Moving
OpenMetaverseTypes library to its own folder. This will save a lot of
prebuild headaches".

I will have to do more searches to see if there is any earlier history
available somewhere for libOMV.

Without using pulling up WinGridProxy to check, is 8 the number used to
identify root inventory folders in Second Life?

--
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Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
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Re: Folder numbers

Diva Canto
On 8/6/2015 8:23 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> Without using pulling up WinGridProxy to check, is 8 the number used
> to identify root inventory folders in Second Life?

yes
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Re: Folder numbers

Cinder Roxley
In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens
Hi,

There isn’t a graceful way to handle this other than by removing consistency checks and assertions. Once those are removed, at login, it still will crash because the viewer attempts to locate the root folder by its folder type type (which is defined as 8.) By design, when a folder or asset is found without a parent folder and it does not have the root folder type, the viewer attempts to move it to Lost and Found. This is to prevent content loss and allow access to the orphaned folder and its contents.

Now obviously, the viewer attempting to move the root folder, which it believes is orphaned because of its invalid folder type, into the Lost and Found folder which is under the root is recursive behavior and very quickly smashes the stack.

Firestorm, Singularity, and Kokua have nullified this verify-and-move behavior on OpenSim; they just don’t do it. That’s a simple viewer workaround, but unhelpful to the end user. There are also other quirky client-server issues caused by this incompatibility. Buy Contents from an object being placed outside of root or in the wrong folder is one example, #RLV folder not working (while not part of SL’s api) is another.

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On August 6, 2015 at 8:58:43 AM, Kevin Cozens ([hidden email]) wrote:

On 15-08-06 10:16 AM, Diva Canto wrote:
> A root
> folder anything other than 8 will crash viewers that check for it.

That would be a bug in the viewer program. If it gets something unexpected
it shouldn't crash but handle it gracefully.

> I would like to hear of any objections to proceeding with (1) complying with
> the protocol for root folders and (2) changing the Suitcase folder number to
> something other than 8 (Oren, you did that, so please let us know).

Has anyone determined why OpenSim changed the root folder number to 9?

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens
On 15-08-06 11:23 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> This was changed in commit #f48c9922 by John Hurliman with a date/timestamp
> of 2009-04-09 01:17:40.

I've done a bit more digging. It had the value of 9 in the the file
OpenMetaverse/AssetManager.cs in commit #ca268926 by John Hurliman dated
2007-07-13 14:49:36. I haven't found the commit message for that change.

--
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Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
In reply to this post by Kevin Cozens
On 15-08-06 11:23 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> This was changed in commit #f48c9922 by John Hurliman with a date/timestamp
> of 2009-04-09 01:17:40. This situation has existed for just over 6 years. I
> haven't yet found the reason for the change. The earliest history of the
> file in question is a commit dated May 11, 2009 that states: "Moving
> OpenMetaverseTypes library to its own folder. This will save a lot of
> prebuild headaches".
>
> I will have to do more searches to see if there is any earlier history
> available somewhere for libOMV.

I finally tracked the issue down to its origins. It has always been this way
as of commit #44f0a76 dated 2007-01-18 13:12:02. The commit message stated
"Starting work on a new asset transfer system". The filename was
libsecondlife/libsecondlife.Utilities/Assets.cs which was added as of this
commit.

Prior to this commit inventory folders where handled very differently.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
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Re: Folder numbers

Nicky Perian
This issue ate my lunch for several months last year and into this year. There is no consistency across grids. OSGrid, 3rd Rock, Great Candian grid and JOpensimulatorWorld appear to follow the SL naming conventions. Diva's dd and others including git/master standalone do not. 

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Kevin Cozens <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 15-08-06 11:23 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:
This was changed in commit #f48c9922 by John Hurliman with a date/timestamp
of 2009-04-09 01:17:40. This situation has existed for just over 6 years. I
haven't yet found the reason for the change. The earliest history of the
file in question is a commit dated May 11, 2009 that states: "Moving
OpenMetaverseTypes library to its own folder. This will save a lot of
prebuild headaches".

I will have to do more searches to see if there is any earlier history
available somewhere for libOMV.

I finally tracked the issue down to its origins. It has always been this way as of commit #44f0a76 dated 2007-01-18 13:12:02. The commit message stated "Starting work on a new asset transfer system". The filename was libsecondlife/libsecondlife.Utilities/Assets.cs which was added as of this commit.

Prior to this commit inventory folders where handled very differently.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                | powerful!"
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Re: Folder numbers

Cinder Roxley
In reply to this post by Oren Hurvitz
On August 6, 2015 at 8:52:21 AM, Oren Hurvitz ([hidden email]) wrote:
So the best approach is this: first, we'll switch the folder types: send the Root Folder as 8, and the Suitcase as 9. Once the viewer devs have added support for Folder Type 100, and enough time has passed that most users have such viewers, we'll change the folder type of the Suitcase to 100, and the viewer devs will remove the hacks that they currently use for OpenSim.

On reviewing the viewer source further, it would probably be ok just to change Suitcase’s folder type to 100 at any time. Using 100 as the folder type is just as invalid as using 9 is to the viewer. Neither are defined currently, and when people switch to compatible viewers, they’d pick up the correct type immediately. I have just tested this change locally with current versions of both Firestorm and Singularity but it would be wise for other folks to do some testing too just in case.

-- 
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Re: Folder numbers

ssm2017
on our grid's database : 924 "My Suitcase" folders have type of 100 and 2 ones are set to -1.
i have never seen a "My Suitcase" folder using 9.
but we have some root folders with 8 and some with 9 (i will update to the good number when the decision will be taken in core)

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Cinder Roxley <[hidden email]> wrote:
On August 6, 2015 at 8:52:21 AM, Oren Hurvitz ([hidden email]) wrote:
So the best approach is this: first, we'll switch the folder types: send the Root Folder as 8, and the Suitcase as 9. Once the viewer devs have added support for Folder Type 100, and enough time has passed that most users have such viewers, we'll change the folder type of the Suitcase to 100, and the viewer devs will remove the hacks that they currently use for OpenSim.

On reviewing the viewer source further, it would probably be ok just to change Suitcase’s folder type to 100 at any time. Using 100 as the folder type is just as invalid as using 9 is to the viewer. Neither are defined currently, and when people switch to compatible viewers, they’d pick up the correct type immediately. I have just tested this change locally with current versions of both Firestorm and Singularity but it would be wise for other folks to do some testing too just in case.

-- 
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Re: Folder numbers

Cinder Roxley
On August 6, 2015 at 12:28:46 PM, ssm2017 ([hidden email]) wrote:
on our grid's database : 924 "My Suitcase" folders have type of 100 and 2 ones are set to -1.
i have never seen a "My Suitcase" folder using 9.
but we have some root folders with 8 and some with 9 (i will update to the good number when the decision will be taken in core)

In the db, it’s stored as type 100, yes, when it is broadcast to the viewer, however, it is sent as type 8 so it will be identified as a System Folder as Oren explained.

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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
In reply to this post by ssm2017
On 15-08-06 02:28 PM, ssm2017 wrote:
> on our grid's database : 924 "My Suitcase" folders have type of 100 and 2
> ones are set to -1.
> but we have some root folders with 8 and some with 9 (i will update to the
> good number when the decision will be taken in core)

I just did a check and found 55 root folders of type of -1, 4867 of type 8,
and 5 of type 9. I have no "My Suitcase folders" as the grid is not HG
enabled. I'm surprised there are so few root folders of type 9.

--
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Kevin.

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Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
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Re: Folder numbers

Diva Canto
On 8/6/2015 12:37 PM, Kevin Cozens wrote:

> On 15-08-06 02:28 PM, ssm2017 wrote:
>> on our grid's database : 924 "My Suitcase" folders have type of 100
>> and 2
>> ones are set to -1.
>> but we have some root folders with 8 and some with 9 (i will update
>> to the
>> good number when the decision will be taken in core)
>
> I just did a check and found 55 root folders of type of -1, 4867 of
> type 8, and 5 of type 9. I have no "My Suitcase folders" as the grid
> is not HG enabled. I'm surprised there are so few root folders of type 9.
>

This shows that this number has not mattered so far -- indeed, it seems
that existing viewers have gone out of their way to ignore it when
dealing with OpenSim. So, I'm convinced it's safe to move on to
converging OpenSim with the SL protocol on this, and extend that
protocol with a new special folder, Suitcase.

Basically, +1 on Oren's suggested plan of action, modulo using 100 for
Suitcase folders instead of 9.
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Re: Folder numbers

Kevin Cozens
On 15-08-06 05:55 PM, Diva Canto wrote:
> Basically, +1 on Oren's suggested plan of action, modulo using 100 for
> Suitcase folders instead of 9.

My research showed that RootFolder has always been 9 since the new inventory
management code was put in place about 8 years ago. If SL has always used 8
for RootFolder it is suprising that this issue didn't get spotted and fixed
years ago. I thought you just had to check for the parent folder ID for the
value of zero UUID to find a root folder.

+1 to change the value of RootFolder if it is in keeping with that other
grid and makes the life of viewer devs easier. The next question is what are
you going to use as the value for Folder? It can't be 8 or you will have to
check the parent folder ID to see if it really is a root folder or not.

Changing RootFolder's value before knowing the new value for Folder may be
changing one problem for another.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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Re: Folder numbers

Diva Canto
Folder is None = -1
https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release/src/9f2f82e7c37127106b340b18c3a938f1ecf121cf/indra/llinventory/llfoldertype.h?at=default#llfoldertype.h-35

On 8/7/2015 8:37 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote:

> On 15-08-06 05:55 PM, Diva Canto wrote:
>> Basically, +1 on Oren's suggested plan of action, modulo using 100 for
>> Suitcase folders instead of 9.
>
> My research showed that RootFolder has always been 9 since the new
> inventory management code was put in place about 8 years ago. If SL
> has always used 8 for RootFolder it is suprising that this issue
> didn't get spotted and fixed years ago. I thought you just had to
> check for the parent folder ID for the value of zero UUID to find a
> root folder.
>
> +1 to change the value of RootFolder if it is in keeping with that
> other grid and makes the life of viewer devs easier. The next question
> is what are you going to use as the value for Folder? It can't be 8 or
> you will have to check the parent folder ID to see if it really is a
> root folder or not.
>
> Changing RootFolder's value before knowing the new value for Folder
> may be changing one problem for another.
>

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Re: Folder numbers

Cinder Roxley
Just as a small aside, I spoke with both Jessica Lyon and Liru Faers and Singularity and Firestorm are picking up the Suitcase folder type 100. Firestorm likely in their next release cycle (they’re already in QA for this release) and Singularity in their next as well. Alchemy will include it in the upcoming release. Nicky, I know you watch this list, but I’ve forgotten your e-mail. I can send you a patch for integration in Kokua if you’d like as well.

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