anon logins

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anon logins

Charles Krinke-3
One of the recurring themes is a suggestion that we encourage "anon" logins in the standalone and grid logic.

This would allow "guests" to logon and perhaps have a certain limited set of abilities. That is, to walk, chat, fly at a minimum, but not to be able to 'take', 'edit', or perhaps limit teleports beyond the login region.

Anyway, I open this mini "Pandora's Box" to see if this is something that should be put on the list.

Charles

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Re: anon logins

Michael Emory Cerquoni
1st though that jumps out at me, is we dont have a viewer capable of doing this.. Without having our own viewer to be able to modify, i dont ever see this becoming a reality, the linden viewer would not cleanly allow for Anonymous account usage.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

FrankNichols
This doesn't require a viewer support, simply login with the last name
annonymous.


Nebadon Izumi wrote:

> 1st though that jumps out at me, is we dont have a viewer capable of
> doing this.. Without having our own viewer to be able to modify, i
> dont ever see this becoming a reality, the linden viewer would not
> cleanly allow for Anonymous account usage.
>
> Neb
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Re: anon logins

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
That is a reasonable point, Nebadon. I was thinking more of this from the OpenSim viewpoint as opposed to the current viewer.

It is possible, even probable that viewers will evolve in different directions. I wonder if this is a reasonable direction for OpenSim and then let viewers adjust as necessary.

There are a few logical issues from the OpenSim viewpoint. One of those that comes to mind is what happens when 2 or a dozen different "guests" or "anon" enter a region simultaneously (and even at the same time).

Charles



From: Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 8:58:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

1st though that jumps out at me, is we dont have a viewer capable of doing this.. Without having our own viewer to be able to modify, i dont ever see this becoming a reality, the linden viewer would not cleanly allow for Anonymous account usage.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

Michael Emory Cerquoni
In reply to this post by FrankNichols
Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require checking the user name and delivering information to them..  Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

Nebadon

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Re: anon logins

Paul Fishwick
The user need not be the same-- anonymousID where ID is assigned by
the system. It would be even easier for the user not to enter any username
(as one does for most web assets). Region and Grid owners can choose
to disallow these guest/anon accounts or accept them -- their choice.
-p


Nebadon Izumi wrote:

> Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times
> with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think
> the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with
> the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about
> functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require
> checking the user name and delivering information to them..  
> Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets
> keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps
> someone can prove me wrong.
>
> Nebadon
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>  


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Dept. of Computer & Info       Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
 Science and Engineering       WWW: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
University of Florida          (PGP Key available at above WWW address)
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Re: anon logins

Michael Emory Cerquoni
again the viewer does not support logging in with no username this requires new viewer.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

Sean Hennessee
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
Last name "anonymous"; first name would have to be unique. Then you would have a unique first/last name to make the viewer happy. Perhaps a web page could assign you a unique first name before you logged in.

Opensim would then need to treat this user special, (anyone with last name anonymous). I would imagine the Opensim.ini file would specify what capabilities an anonymous user had.

[anonymous]
move=true
fly=false
chat=true
shout=false
build=true
script=false
etc.

Peace,
Sean

Nebadon Izumi wrote:
Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require checking the user name and delivering information to them..  Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

Nebadon

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[hidden email]
http://www.nacs.uci.edu/~sean
Central Computing Support
Network & Academic Computing Services
UC Irvine
(949)824-8225 Office
(949)293-5224 Cell


... . .- -. /  .... . -. -. . ... ... . .

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Re: anon logins

Michael Emory Cerquoni
I like this option, be interesting to see if this could be done, you UCI guys are so Clever :P

Neb

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Sean Hennessee <[hidden email]> wrote:
Last name "anonymous"; first name would have to be unique. Then you would have a unique first/last name to make the viewer happy. Perhaps a web page could assign you a unique first name before you logged in.

Opensim would then need to treat this user special, (anyone with last name anonymous). I would imagine the Opensim.ini file would specify what capabilities an anonymous user had.

[anonymous]
move=true
fly=false
chat=true
shout=false
build=true
script=false
etc.

Peace,
Sean

Nebadon Izumi wrote:
Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require checking the user name and delivering information to them..  Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

Nebadon

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[hidden email]
http://www.nacs.uci.edu/~sean
Central Computing Support
Network & Academic Computing Services
UC Irvine
(949)824-8225 Office
(949)293-5224 Cell


... . .- -. /  .... . -. -. . ... ... . .

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Re: anon logins

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Sean Hennessee
Great. These are interesting ideas. Having a dynamic last name assigned like "Guest001" through "Guest999" (or Anon, or Anonymous) might be a way forward for chat and IM. Personally, I would prefer a 'shorter' as opposed to 'longish' last name, but thats only my personal typing bias.

I could certainly see OpenViewer, Hippo, IdealistViewer or RexClient moving in this direction if there was sufficient community interest.

The main reason I brought it up was to think forward a little bit towards educational, scientific and general usage in a 3D internet paradigm that might be one of those small steps that would gain OpenSim more acceptance.

I am not thinking of the SecondLife client or maingrid here so much as trying to imagine a few features that would benefit OpenSim six months from now. And a guest or anon login seems like one of those.

This being the eave of our OS2B, it just seemed to me that discussing a few of these sorts of ideas would be at least stimulating for our OpenSim community.

Charles


From: Sean Hennessee <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 9:50:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

Last name "anonymous"; first name would have to be unique. Then you would have a unique first/last name to make the viewer happy. Perhaps a web page could assign you a unique first name before you logged in.

Opensim would then need to treat this user special, (anyone with last name anonymous). I would imagine the Opensim.ini file would specify what capabilities an anonymous user had.

[anonymous]
move=true
fly=false
chat=true
shout=false
build=true
script=false
etc.

Peace,
Sean

Nebadon Izumi wrote:
Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require checking the user name and delivering information to them..  Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

Nebadon

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[hidden email] http://www.nacs.uci.edu/~sean Central Computing Support Network & Academic Computing Services UC Irvine (949)824-8225 Office (949)293-5224 Cell ... . .- -. / .... . -. -. . ... ... . .

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Re: anon logins

Mircea Kitsune
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
This is the same idea I discussed here a month ago which I brought up with the exact same vision. As I said then, we don't need such a feature client-side in order to allow anonymous logins. Grids could enable so called "guest logins" which would allow one to login with any first name they want and a grid chosen last name that would be used for anonymous users (eg: Guest, Anonymous, Unregistered) and of course no password. So to anon login, you would just use the names AnyNameIWantHere Guest with no password, and if the grid allows be there as a guest. This feature is not yet implemented for grid mode as far as I know but could be very useful. Guess this is +2 for the feature for now.


Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:54:01 -0800
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

One of the recurring themes is a suggestion that we encourage "anon" logins in the standalone and grid logic.

This would allow "guests" to logon and perhaps have a certain limited set of abilities. That is, to walk, chat, fly at a minimum, but not to be able to 'take', 'edit', or perhaps limit teleports beyond the login region.

Anyway, I open this mini "Pandora's Box" to see if this is something that should be put on the list.

Charles


check out the rest of the Windows Live™. More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox. More than messages
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Re: anon logins

Charles Krinke-3
Mircea:

My apologies if your ideas were not credited properly. As I recall, you and others have suggested guest logins and I just thought this morning was a good time to open the discussion a little bit on our OS2B.

Charles


From: Mircea Kitsune <[hidden email]>
To: opensim-dev mailing list <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:03:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

This is the same idea I discussed here a month ago which I brought up with the exact same vision. As I said then, we don't need such a feature client-side in order to allow anonymous logins. Grids could enable so called "guest logins" which would allow one to login with any first name they want and a grid chosen last name that would be used for anonymous users (eg: Guest, Anonymous, Unregistered) and of course no password. So to anon login, you would just use the names AnyNameIWantHere Guest with no password, and if the grid allows be there as a guest. This feature is not yet implemented for grid mode as far as I know but could be very useful. Guess this is +2 for the feature for now.


Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:54:01 -0800
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

One of the recurring themes is a suggestion that we encourage "anon" logins in the standalone and grid logic.

This would allow "guests" to logon and perhaps have a certain limited set of abilities. That is, to walk, chat, fly at a minimum, but not to be able to 'take', 'edit', or perhaps limit teleports beyond the login region.

Anyway, I open this mini "Pandora's Box" to see if this is something that should be put on the list.

Charles


check out the rest of the Windows Live™. More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox. More than messages

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Re: anon logins

Paul Fishwick
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
People do a lot of web-browsing and perhaps anon accounts will help better
integrate opensim with the web. Consider the following:

 1. Someone is browsing the web for a topic such as "red wine"
 2. They get to various wine distributor and vineyard web pages
 3. They find out that one of the vineyards has a "hot link" to a 3D space
 4. They click on it and find themselves in the opensim world for the
vineyard

We need to find ways of making it easier, and more transparent, to go
between
#2 and #4. It may be that a stepping-stone is required such as Xenki,
which is
browser embedded (before launching a full-blown viewer).

Anon accounts may help because it is similar to unrestricted web browsing.
And, these accounts may ease the transition between #2 and #4, and thus
grow the metaverse.

-p

Charles Krinke wrote:

> Great. These are interesting ideas. Having a dynamic last name
> assigned like "Guest001" through "Guest999" (or Anon, or Anonymous)
> might be a way forward for chat and IM. Personally, I would prefer a
> 'shorter' as opposed to 'longish' last name, but thats only my
> personal typing bias.
>
> I could certainly see OpenViewer, Hippo, IdealistViewer or RexClient
> moving in this direction if there was sufficient community interest.
>
> The main reason I brought it up was to think forward a little bit
> towards educational, scientific and general usage in a 3D internet
> paradigm that might be one of those small steps that would gain
> OpenSim more acceptance.
>
> I am not thinking of the SecondLife client or maingrid here so much as
> trying to imagine a few features that would benefit OpenSim six months
> from now. And a guest or anon login seems like one of those.
>
> This being the eave of our OS2B, it just seemed to me that discussing
> a few of these sorts of ideas would be at least stimulating for our
> OpenSim community.
>
> Charles
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Sean Hennessee <[hidden email]>
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 23, 2009 9:50:13 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
>
> Last name "anonymous"; first name would have to be unique. Then you
> would have a unique first/last name to make the viewer happy. Perhaps
> a web page could assign you a unique first name before you logged in.
>
> Opensim would then need to treat this user special, (anyone with last
> name anonymous). I would imagine the Opensim.ini file would specify
> what capabilities an anonymous user had.
>
> [anonymous]
> move=true
> fly=false
> chat=true
> shout=false
> build=true
> script=false
> etc.
>
> Peace,
> Sean
>
> Nebadon Izumi wrote:
>> Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times
>> with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think
>> the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza
>> with the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think
>> about functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require
>> checking the user name and delivering information to them..  
>> Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets
>> keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps
>> someone can prove me wrong.
>>
>> Nebadon
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>>  
>
> --
>
> Sean Hennessee
> mailto:[hidden email]
> http://www.nacs.uci.edu/~sean
> Central Computing Support
> Network & Academic Computing Services
> UC Irvine
> (949)824-8225 Office
> (949)293-5224 Cell
>
>
> ... . .- -. /  .... . -. -. . ... ... . .
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>  


--
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Dept. of Computer & Info       Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
 Science and Engineering       WWW: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
University of Florida          (PGP Key available at above WWW address)
P. O. Box 116120
332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120

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Re: anon logins

Michael Emory Cerquoni
I think one thing also needs figuring out is how will appearance be handled for these users, personally i think Anonymous users should be something like a puff of smoke, and not Ruth or even Human appearance, it should be something obvious.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

Charles Krinke-3
Overweight tourist with a camera like There.com ??

But, yes, that is another good question, how should we represent the avatar and what features should a sim allow to a guest avatar. All good things to consider as we evolve the Metaverse off into the future.

Personally, I would think a guest should have the ability to read notecards, experience scripts, probably be able to "touch". Things that would fit into the paradigm of a naive user entering the Metaverse for the first time.

I like the browser Xenkii idea. I rather suspect most of these folks will enter our Metaverse through some sort of browser interface as a result of a hyperlink on a 'Flat Web Site'.

Charles



From: Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:18:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

I think one thing also needs figuring out is how will appearance be handled for these users, personally i think Anonymous users should be something like a puff of smoke, and not Ruth or even Human appearance, it should be something obvious.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

Sean Hennessee
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
All anonymous users should look like Kenny from South Park, and 'killable' in every other episode, er, umm, login. :-)
~Sean

Nebadon Izumi wrote:
I think one thing also needs figuring out is how will appearance be handled for these users, personally i think Anonymous users should be something like a puff of smoke, and not Ruth or even Human appearance, it should be something obvious.

Neb

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Re: anon logins

Ai Austin
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
At 17:50 23/01/2009, Charles Krinke <[hidden email]>wrote:
>One of the recurring themes is a suggestion that we encourage "anon"
>logins in the standalone and grid logic.
>
>This would allow "guests" to logon and perhaps have a certain
>limited set of abilities. That is, to walk, chat, fly at a minimum,
>but not to be able to 'take', 'edit', or perhaps limit teleports
>beyond the login region.


I would support that... but it should be enabled/disabled via an
opensim.ini entry.  Default OFF, but also allowing "default region"
and "go anywhere" as the 3 options.

Its much better than making Testa User style logins with far too many
permissions that can mess you up. But inviting people in to "take a
look" would be great.  Ai

P.S. Opensim is coming on great folks.. I want to thank you all for
your dedication to this public spirited task. Have a good weekend.


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Re: anon logins

Dirk Krause
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni

A sphere.

 

Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Nebadon Izumi
Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Januar 2009 20:18
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins

 

I think one thing also needs figuring out is how will appearance be handled for these users, personally i think Anonymous users should be something like a puff of smoke, and not Ruth or even Human appearance, it should be something obvious.

Neb


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Re: anon logins

Mircea Kitsune
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
It's perfectly ok cfk, that's not what I meant and such a thing doesn't matter to me at all. Many likely had the same ideas and thoughts on this whoever brought the topic up first. What matters is the decision we take on how to implement such a system the right way :)

> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:30:52 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
>
> Mircea:
>
> My apologies if your ideas were not credited properly. As I recall, you and others
> have suggested guest logins and I just thought this morning was a good time to
> open the discussion a little bit on our OS2B.

>
> Charles

Many of us see things the same way Paul. Anon logins would allow Opensim to be used just like the web where you can type an URL and be there. Put in my previous example, like IRC or forums where guests can enter, listen/read and talk/post where they're allowed to but need to register in order to setup avatars, signatures, upload files, have sticky voice / op status... Especially considering that there are some viewers now which can run from web pages, one would just open their web browser, type out the URL and be on OSGrid!

In our case guests would not be able to have persistent inventory, friend lists, profiles, etc. because of technical limits, since anon logins would be temporary like unregistered IRC nicknames so storing anything for them would lead to issues and conflicts as well as keep gigantic storage for nicknames which may never be used again. Being allowed to build or run scripts should be an option of the sim owner in opensim.ini, who could choose if to allow guests to build there or not. Sim owners should also be allowed to specify if guests can enter their sim (in case the grid allows guests too of course) so owners could make their regions off limit to guests if they wish.

Another factor I highlighted in the previous discussion is how guest logins could increase user count on grids and therefore Opensim usage and popularity. Many SL users are still not interested in Opensim a lot, and when they see they have to register to enter places like OSGrid some say "Nah, I don't need to waste my time with another account just to see how an Opensim grid looks like". Guest logins on popular OS grids would make it much easier for people to enter just to visit or chat, and convince some to join while others who don't care to register could just hang out as guests for as much as they want. OSGrid still suffers from a very low number of users and high number of sims, and guest logins might help improve that and we could see +80 users logged in on a daily basis again.

> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:50:33 -0500
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] anon logins
>
> People do a lot of web-browsing and perhaps anon accounts will help better
> integrate opensim with the web. Consider the following:
>
> 1. Someone is browsing the web for a topic such as "red wine"
> 2. They get to various wine distributor and vineyard web pages
> 3. They find out that one of the vineyards has a "hot link" to a 3D space
> 4. They click on it and find themselves in the opensim world for the
> vineyard
>
> We need to find ways of making it easier, and more transparent, to go
> between
> #2 and #4. It may be that a stepping-stone is required such as Xenki,
> which is
> browser embedded (before launching a full-blown viewer).
>
> Anon accounts may help because it is similar to unrestricted web browsing.
> And, these accounts may ease the transition between #2 and #4, and thus
> grow the metaverse.
>
> -p


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Re: anon logins

FrankNichols
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
Hmm, well, my response was in regards to the client/viewer. I expect
each anon login would recieve a UUID which would make it unique as far
as the server/region is concerned. I expect some tweaking in the server
would be required. As for chatting etc, well, yes, it might be confusing
to have 20 or 30 people nearby all with the same name, but I think the
idea is not an account that people would use long term, but one that
someone could just drop in and see what OS/SL is all about. Also, the
server could assign a unique first or last name to the user if needed,
again, server side tweaks we can handle.

I am not familiar with the client code, so it may in fact be working
with the account/name and not the uuid, which would be unfortunate
design - but not the first unfortunate design decision there...
Nebadon Izumi wrote:

> Frank give this a try , try logging into osgrid or secondlife 2 times
> with the same account and tell me what happens, and how do you think
> the SL viewer would respond if 30 peopel logged into Wright Plaza with
> the name "Anonymous User" think beyond just the login, think about
> functionaly using Chat and access things in world that require
> checking the user name and delivering information to them..  
> Personally i dont see this happening with the Linden Viewer, but lets
> keep the topic rolling here, im not trying to shut it down, perhaps
> someone can prove me wrong.
>
> Nebadon
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